you're singing hallelujah with fear in your heart

[hathycol]

I class myself as a lapsed Catholic, or according to facebook, a superstitious Catholic. After a long amount of self-doubt brought about by reacting against a school that forced it down my throat, I realised that a firm Catholic education since I was three had taken it's toll; I'm completely blindly terrified of hell and I feel bad for a lot of things I do a lot of the time. It is a Thing. I'd also feel more comfortable having baptised children, to be married in a Catholic church, and so help me, I want a priest there when I'm dying, and I want to be buried in consecrated ground, and I want to be buried. I think the Pope can be misguided on a lot of issues, and that he is just a man and that is all, but I also think that there's something to be said for following his lead when he'snot being blind. I don't think all Popes were good people - Alexander IV fathered Lucretia Borgia; Boniface VIII was a madman; Innocent III was generally rubbish; Julius II went to war - but I think the idea is right. I don't eat meat on Good Friday. I can still sing a lot of hymns.

I apply all these things to myself, though. I'm taking Simon's wishes into account when it comes to the thing above that we'll be sharing, because the period of self-doubt came from the fact that I am outraged and horrified by the assumption that my way is the only way forward. I also have a lot of self-doubt that perhaps I'm wrong and it turns out that perhaps Calvin was right and God really is that much of a bastard; perhaps I should have converted to Islam years ago; perhaps Jesus really was the false prophet and Christians in general should have stuck to being Jews; perhaps we should all be worshipping his Noodly Worshipfulness. There's even science to prove that last one.

To be honest, I'm a rubbish Catholic, I really am. I don't go to church, I haven't been to confession for years, I've never tried to convert someone and I see no reason to do so, I find overt religiousity a little distasteful unless someone takes it to extremes - word up, kids, it says in the bloody Holy Book you keep on trying to bash over my head that it's harder for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than a rich man get to heaven, and no, really, that honestly isn't a metaphor idiots - and actually becomes a hermit or something and all in all all that's basically left is a belief in the Nicene Creed (I believe in God the Father, etc, etc) and that if a priest is there at the end, everything will be sorted out.

It's a... childlike faith, I think. I always like having a safety net. I, er, pray sometimes. Not often. Not formally. I rattle off my Our Father and Hail Mary as a ritual before exams, as something to ward off the evil eye, like a protection. (I can even do the Ave Maria now, because like everyone brought up Catholic, it's clearly better in Latin - Ave Maria, gratia plena... don't correct me on spelling, I can only do it phoenetically.) Sometimes I do a desperate plea when things go horribly, awfully wrong, and it's nice to imagine that someone is out there. God Himself might not give a crap, of course, but, well, there are saints. I like saints. The saints care, the saints intercede.

And, in the end, I think this is all why I'm finding my course in divinity so utterly depressing. I can't find much that I sympathise with, in terms of religion, with Martin Luther. I have nothing whatsoever in common with Calvin. His doctrines frighten me. It's not the religion I recognise, the one that I was brought up with; a comforting presence, with processions and ideals and traditions that mean a lot, no constant self-examination. Catholicism has a forgiving and noble God, who gave up his Son out of that love, who promised never to bring disaster again after sort of accidentally drowing the world. Where the important part is faith, hope and love, and the most important of these is love.

Where, basically, if you live a good life, then it's okay if you missed a few sacraments. You might go to Purgatory for a wee bit, but that's okay, because you'll get out. I believe in heaven, too. No, really, I do. It's not very trendy. I know. I don't talk about it very much, because I think other people don't care, and I don't think about it, either. Because I don't need to. There's a safety net there for me, and that's good.

Here, unfortunately, is where we've reached the problem that divinity has given me. Other than being incredibly depressing and just gave me the same anger that a Catholic education did, it's done something else - it's made me doubt in that safety net. And that makes me angry. I spent two years of my life coming to terms with the fact that I had that safety net. And I was happy. I liked having it there, I liked the feeling that someone cared.

And I've gone through a semester of people telling me that such faith is silly, that I should be constantly thinking and evaluating it, and that works for some people, it does, and I'm glad for them, but it's doesn't work for me.

I think I'm going to go to church on Sunday. I've never felt a blinding flash of light about church, but I find the rituals comforting; these rituals have existed, in one form or another, for thousands of years, and more importantly, they've existed for me for as long as I've lived, and with what, a billion or so Catholics around the globe? they'll keep on existing. I'm looking forward to going to Mass in Venice, and then again possibly in the Vatican City in September, and I don't see anything wrong with that; I find Mass comforting. I find my religion comforting.

I'll stop feeling so angry and alone soon. But now, reading Calvin's Institutes, a book that apparently inspires about eighty million or so people to live a better life,, I just think 'why?' and cling onto what threads of my childhood I have left.

And that's all I'll say on the topic of faith. I have better things to talk about - the lady doth protest too much, or so it seems to me when people constantly fucking bang on about how lovely they find their conversion or whatever - like David Tennant, and history, and university, and the fact I went to Primark and brought some boots for £2. But I needed to get this out before I go and dig up the body of John Knox. It doesn't help that I live in St Andrews, the home of the Scottish Reformation. Seriously, you have no idea how many of the buggars I can go and defile the graves of. (He's buried under a car park in South Street, for those who are.)

Lastly, please don't take any offence from this. I have respect for everyone's personal religion, and if it makes you happy, and it doesn't make you do things like blow up entire countries, or at least trains, or riot at the funeral of dead soldiers, then I honestly don't care. This is just what I think, and how it has an effect on me and, to be honest, unless you're in the divinity department of the university of St Andres or are personally John Calvin, it's not directed at you.

I just needed to get this out. Sorry again.

Comments

[calapine.livejournal.com]

I sometimes feel vaguely envious that the Catholic faith gets all the shiny and I get...um....coffee mornings? And whilst Catholics are meant to be brought up with a guilt complex, I'm meant to get a work ethic, and somehow I missed out on that, boo.

And Knox was a right twat, to say the least. The very, very least.

[kelemvor.livejournal.com]

I find my religion comforting.
At the end of the day, that's what matters.

I'm somewhat ambivalent on the subject of religion. I dabbled with non-denominational Christianity as a teenager (as well as offering a sort of comfort, it was also a minor act of rebellion against my decidedly non-religious parents), but couldn't reconcile it with my emerging homosexuality. That ambivalence also extends to the Catholic Church - my grandmother was one of six children of my twice-maternal great-grandmother, who was Irish RC. My grandmother married outside the Church, and was (so far as I can tell, from reading Wiki) excommunicated until she formally repented to the Bishop of Cornwall. That did not sit easily with me. However, since her interview, she has been officially welcomed to her local parish and her scones and piccalilli are highly sought. (Her main problem with going to church now is my grandfather, but that's another rant.)

At the end of the day, what we each believe is highly personal and deeply important to us. Not sure where I was going with this one - got presented with Food in the middle of it - but if your Catholicism is your support, all well and good. Good luck with the exams!

[sevenhelz.livejournal.com]

It's okay to have a safety net. It's okay to enjoy that safety net. It's okay not to think about it all the time, provided you have thought about it at some point.
I am an atheist; I was never baptised or christened; and I'm still coming to terms with it being okay to sing religious songs in churches. Religion is a funny thing.
Much love.
xx

[loneraven.livejournal.com]

Your religion is all your own, and you shouldn't feel ashamed of it or apologetic about it. I thought this was very interesting to read - I am woefully ignorant about Catholicism - and the bit that really rings true is that yes, people through centuries and across continents have held this same beliefs, and that counts for something, even in the face of doubt. I hope church on Sunday makes you feel better.

*hugs* I feel like I haven't spoken to you much lately. Here's to keeping in touch more.

[tau_sigma]

Firstly;

I've never tried to convert someone and I see no reason to do so, I find overt religiousity a little distasteful unless someone takes it to extremes

this totally doesn't make you a bad Catholic. Well, certainly not a bad Christian; admittedly I'm not Catholic myself, but as far as I know, converting people is not A Required Thing. As I see it, it's more a thing that maybe might happen if you just live your life as a Christian, people might see you and think 'ooh, maybe they're right'. And I am so very squeamish about overt religiousity, and forcing religion on people. It just makes people angry and defensive, just like dismissive atheism.

Otherly; I'm glad you wrote this post - it's always interesting to hear someone else's view on a faith, and to hear what you take from it, and all that. I hope church on Sunday helps - I find it comforting, too, with all the traditions and predictability of services and such. *hugs*

[stupidore.livejournal.com]

HAHAHA I KNOW ABOUT THE NICEAN CREED AND CAN DRAW DIAGRAMES AND EVERYTHING DO YOU WANT TO SEE MY PICTURES?!!

*ahem*
I think it's the only non-commonsense thing I've been taught by divinity this semester.

[gothmog-dave.livejournal.com]

Reading this actually made me happy - it puts into words a lot of what has gone through my mind at times. I am a catholic too - practicing in my case, but liberal - and I have to put up with a lot of flak just for believing what I believe, from the church hierachy for being liberal, and from non-catholics for being religious at all. I once got compared to a Nazi who likes his jewish neighbours, just because i am a catholic who has loads of LGBT friends.

[hathy-col.livejournal.com]

Yeah, see, I get the guilt complex but at least I'm not expected to work. Hurrah!

I have parked over Knox's remains. I thought this was very funny at the time.

[dougs.livejournal.com]

> Where the important part is faith, hope and love, and the most important of these is love.

I refer you to everything you've seen me write on the subject. Hold on to your faith; hold on to your hope; never forget the love that your religion promises you, and instructs you to reflect.

[hathy-col.livejournal.com]

You can now be married outside of the church, as long as it's not into another religion. My family are convertees, though; my Methodist grandfather married into my Catholic grandmother's family. Things have changed recently out of desperation to try and keep members. I find it very amusing that the Church is now sending African missionaries over to conver the heathens of France and Britain...

Regarding the fact I fancy women and whatnot, I ignore the Church on this. Because, well, I was made this way by God, and to be honest, the one I know really doesn't care one way or the other. Interesting, the Catholic church doesn't acually mind if you're gay, as long as you don't act on those impulses. Or any kind of impulse. At all. In fact, the only acceptable time to do naughty things is on Tuesday and Thursdays in August, if you follow all the rules laid down over the centuries.

Oh, you horny monks over the centuries, what amusement you give us twenty-first century students.

[hathy-col.livejournal.com]

Medieval and renaissance religious music is so beautiful, though; I love the sort of raw sound of some of it. Modern hymns, not so much. (All Things Bright And Beautiful makes me angry - 'the rich man at his castle, the poor man at his gate?' I THINK NOT.)

[hathy-col.livejournal.com]

Keeping in touch is good, especially when we're both snowed under with university rubbish. Most importantly, it is nearly summer! And we will be in the same bit of the country! At the same time! Egads! And that will be Most Good Indeed, yes. *nods*

[hathy-col.livejournal.com]

See, at RE GCSE in high school, we had a whole year of Traditions Of The Roman Catholic Church. A year! And what they banged on about as one of the most important bits was preaching the good word and converting people.

Ugh no no no no. What people think in their heads is their own business, thank you very much.

Predictable churches are most awesome. It's nice, knowing what will happen wek in, week out. Sort of.. safe? A bit?

[hathy-col.livejournal.com]

I actually know nothing about the Nicean Creed other than that it exists and that every major Christian group in the world believes in it including Lutherans. They had a long and dull debate about it. They did about a lot of things. *facepalm* Bloody divinity.

[hathy-col.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I don't think you can win if you are a slightly liberal religious type on a uni campus. You're either a frothing atheist or a frothing CU type and those in between are safest just keeping their heads down.

[tau_sigma]

Oh dear. Here is where I go: Catholic Schmatholic. Anglicanism is where it's at. Or not so much, perhaps.

Yes! Safe is exactly it; for me, at least. Going to different churches always stresses me a bit: one of many reasons why I love the 1662 Anglican evensong service: it's been done that way for four hundred years, it doesn't matter where I go, it will be the same words that I know and thus I don't even have to worry about finding out where they hide the order of service and such. I am shockingly set in my ways. Oops.

[hathy-col.livejournal.com]

See, as a Catholic, I take 'love' as meaning 'brotherly love' (from the Greek karitas, or charity, as is in the original passage - I should point out, by the way, the reason I do this I learnt about three weeks ago, it's all the fault of the Council of Trent, but anyway, this is how I was brought up, just without the understanding); if you love your neighbour, then even if you get nothing back, then at least God will metaphorically pat you on the head.

Oh my, I am not cut out for this theology thing. But, er, I think you summed up a lot of what I meant to say. Thank you.

[kelemvor.livejournal.com]

...the Church is now sending African missionaries over to conver the heathens of France and Britain...
Funny - yesterday, we watched a Tommy Tiernan DVD in which he did a routine about it, imagining a service preached by an African Catholic priest. With the accent... (He also did one on anal sex and the importance of distinguishing Vaseline from Vapo-Rub, but we won't go there.)

Interesting, the Catholic church doesn't acually mind if you're gay, as long as you don't act on those impulses.
See, I missed that bit at about the time that it would have helped (a little). Trouble was, my biggest crush at school was also a member of the CU, so while I could spend more time with him, I increasingly thought that I ought not to. *Pokes brane* Damn' covert-religious influences of all grandparents! (My paternal grandparents were Methodists, which I've always taken to be like Catholics but without the alcohol or swearing. That, coupled with my other grandmother's subtle and deft uses of Guilt, did weird things to my head when I was growing up.)

[gothmog-dave.livejournal.com]

Sadly, this is true.

[sevenhelz.livejournal.com]

I agree. And I can write species counterpoint now! Woo for pretty tunes!

Hay, I totally should've done that for my string quartet. Oh well.
*hug*
xx

[not-vacillating.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you feel you can share this with us, and I'm always interested to hear people's religious views. I don't find Luther or Clavin that annoying myself (my background is Protestant when it's Christian at all), but it's fascinating to hear about your reactions. I hope getting it out made you feel a bit better. :) And I know what you mean about comfort-- I've still not decided whether I'm really a Quaker or not, but I find a lot of comfort in going to Quaker Meeting (church) some Sundays.

[cedara]

Each to their own.

As long as you leave me to mine (pagan), I'll leave you to your religion. :-)

Though the usual default setting of some people (not you!) - everyone's Christian - annoys me at times.

[hathy-col.livejournal.com]

I think what we all need, dep down, is a sense of security. Mine is what I grew up rebelling against. Strange world...

[hathy-col.livejournal.com]

Private religion is just that - private. I honestly don't care as long as people don't try to proselytise me!

The idea that everyone is Christian annoys me, too. It's... selfish, and one of the reasons divinity annoys me so much; they assume everyone in the room is Christian, and I know of at least one Jewish student who isn't exactly happy with this viewpoint. Honestly. Silly department.

[not-vacillating.livejournal.com]

Generally, I think that those who rebel against something are influenced by it as deeply as those who mimic it-- I usually cite changes styles of comedy as a good example. Also, I guess that whatever your feelings were towards something at the time, if it was an important part of your childhood it has a familiarity, a reliablilty, which makes it seem secure and comforting.

[not-vacillating.livejournal.com]

Thanks goodness my Theology and Religious Studies department isn't like that. Mind you, I think it would be hard to be blind to the hijabs in our lecture rooms, even if you missed the Stars of David, pentacles, and suchlike, which can be found if you look.

[hathy-col.livejournal.com]

Home of the Scottish Reformation, and the divinity department is the oldest in Scotland. As evidenced by the fact it's called 'divinity' still. As such, it gets away wih murder that wouldn't be allowed in other departments.

RUBBISH RUBBISH RUBBISH COURSE.

[not-vacillating.livejournal.com]

That's a shame, because old departments have the potential to be really good-- it's sad when they're allowed to rest on their laurels and stop working properly. But teaching the Reformation as if the Protestants were automatically right (I assume that's what they're doing) is like teaching any other history from an uncritised and bias standpoint-- generally bad academic practice.

[dragonlady7.livejournal.com]

I was raised Catholic too, but not purely-- my father is Catholic, but my mother is not and never has been. She's the descendant of Puritans who fled England around the time of the English Civil War. (Professional-quality troublemakers, the lot of them. I still want to write a romance novel about them with actual authentic period attitudes and all.)
My dad has never really been a particularly orthodox Catholic, though. He openly said he didn't figure it much mattered what church or belief system you chose, as long as you understood the basic idea which was to be a good and decent person. He has occasionally admitted that he doesn't particularly believe in Heaven or Hell except that he hasn't got any better ideas so he might as well go along with it. He also said he couldn't believe God wouldn't be a conscientious recycler, so he thinks reincarnation must happen somehow. Again, not exactly orthodox. But he's on the Parish Council and puts money in the collection box every week, so...

Personally, I reasoned it out in high school and came up with a (to me very convincing) list of what, of the Church's official beliefs and whatnot, were obviously human inventions, and what was appreciably divine. Since then I haven't thought much of it, but I have to say I don't find the ideas of Heaven or Hell terribly convincing. What works for me is to believe that the concepts of Heaven and Hell are human ways of explaining something much more difficult to explain.

I won't go on and on about it-- I have my own journal for that, and it's probably time i sat and reasoned it out again-- but largely I agree with you that in this crowded earth, it's really best to let everyone believe what they believe. It is unpardonable to attempt to force anything on anyone.

And it is very, very hard to be a semi-religious, non-proselytizing [wow i cannot spell that], fairly moderate person-fond-of-logic nowadays.
Good luck with your awful, awful course. It sounds massively irritating, if nothing else.

[hathy-col.livejournal.com]

See, now, being Puritan at the time of the English Civil War was bad. If they'd hung around for five years, then it was the best time for religious tolerance in English history. As long as you weren't Catholic. Good old Oliver Cromwell.

I think as long as people are happy and comfortable in themselves, and don't go about blowing abortion clinics and stuff up, then I honestly don't think it matters. Yes, Catholics are meant to listen to the Pope, but, er, historically they rarely did. My main example in this is St Francis of Assisi. Or Thomas Aquinas. And if I did about ten minutes of scurrying in the medieval history library, I could find you more. As such, I don't feel so bad being a bit odd.

That course is GODAWFUL and I will be SO GLAD when it's all over on Friday. Roll on 11.30am on Friday!